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Jack Trader
P Plater
11 Posts
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 Posted - 21 Jun 2007 : 10:08:39 PM
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Suggestions please.
I am in the final stages of fitting a vn v6 in a dyna truck. All has gone well until I went to start it. No spark. Fault code 41 is logged; no crankshaft reference pulses. Crank Angle Sensor was working fine when in the commodore but fitted new one. Still no spark, still fault code 41. Continuity of wires between CAS and DFI module OK. Continuity of wires between DFI module and ECM ok. DFI module has power in and good earth. EST out and bypass control (pins D4 and D5 on ECM)are 0.05v within spec. The crankshaft reference input (white/violet wire pin B5) is 4.93v when spec says it should be 0.02v or 11v.
Can anyone tell me the significance of B5 being out of spec and or what else can log a crank angle sensor code other than the CAS or faulty wiring.
Bit stuck, any leads appreciated.
No oscilloscope available to me unfortunately.
regards
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jun 2007 : 11:45:35 PM
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| crikey jak welcome to the club looks like you've hit a bit of a stump there !!! I know this might sound stupid but is or does your tail shaft line up!! I know from previous experiences I fitted a vn v6 motor into a landcruiser g/b, motor ECT what a night mare went fine until time to start it !!! Spose I should ask 1rst have u been able to get it cranked over or any crank at all?? When I did mine the same sorta ( not error 41 ) problem occurred! The tail shaft was that unbalanced from being on another angle that it would slap that much it wasnt funny .... but at the same time it would stall!!!!Came down to balance!! I know this has nothing to do with the ecm I know fruk about the elects on these things!!!! Another stupid quetion but is the motor reliable ? (I know its a vn of course it is ) but was it in good nick when u got it?? And have u tryed resetting the ecm?? I know we say this alot on here but.... it may be a old fault code logged into the comp, by resetting the resetting the ecm it will clear the junk codes that have been recorded!!!! I know its not much help at this point in time m8 but hang in there, there are plenty of useres here that know there stuff ( I only know the basics) lol keep posted m8 and again nice to have ya as a member!!!! |
3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead |
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VNSVLE
Forum Moderator
1316 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 02:50:36 AM
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Part of this you have already done but i will repeat anyways -
Remove wiring loom from the ECM. With the ignition on back probe ECM terminal B5 to earth. Check the voltage, voltage should be over 10 volts or under 1 volt. Now turn the engine over on starter. If the voltage varies to over 10 volts or under 1 volt check for a loose B5 terminal or faulty ECM. If the voltage does not vary as the engine is turned over replace the DFI ignition modual.
So by the sounds of it I would probably be looking at replacing the DFI Ignition module if your voltage is staying at a constant 4.93v. |
What's the difference between understeer and oversteer?
Understeer is when the driver is scared.
Oversteer is when the passenger is scared. |
Edited by - VNSVLE on 22 Jun 2007 02:54:30 AM |
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Jack Trader
P Plater
11 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 11:22:35 AM
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Thank you trizo for the welcome.
Thank you vnsvle for the pointers.
With ECM plugged in B5 probes 4.93v ignition on 0.2v cranking. With ECM unplugged B5 probes 5v ignition on 0v cranking. Which by your diagnosis suggest loose B5 terminal or faulty ECM. Terminals and wiring are OK do we have a test to confirm ECM fault?
trizo, I was very choosy about the donor car. I've done these conversions before with parts from wreckers and it becomes a nightmare not having everything you need. The engine in the car was very sweet and the engine management was fine so anything that is now stuffed, I've stuffed in the conversion process. The only change to the system is external fuel pump, and I'm not running the warning lamp check relay and circuit. Also yet to adapt speed sensor but experience tells me this will not prevent spark or start up (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't expect this to log a fault code 24 until the engine actually starts and drives as I believe the sensor is ignored until certain other conditions are met (in gear, higher revs, high vacuum I think)
Looking to me like a DFI module or ECM how can I confirm which?
regards |
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nodg
National Driver
1667 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 11:41:04 AM
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| Have you earthed off the motor properly?. it sounds very strange that the motor worked in the commodore then suddenly sh*ts itself, unless youve shorted out when installing? |
Cheers,
Nodg. |
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Jack Trader
P Plater
11 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 1:30:47 PM
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Thanks nodg, yes engine is very well earthed. You're right, it is strange that it worked in the car and not in the truck, but you have to remember when ever you adapt or change things to fit somewhere they're not designed to be there is room for mistake. I've had to cut and shut the engine wiring harness to fit in the truck and the loom to the relay cluster and make a loom for under the dash for lights/ignition signals etc. I've triple checked these and I'm fairly confident they are right. In fact it's only the CAS reference pulse wire that displays anything wrong. The ECM was stored away from the job until I was ready for it as they are susceptible to voltage spikes from welding. However the DFI module was present on the engine when I tacked the engine mounts together. I've welded on these cars before with the battery disconnected and ECM removed and never damaged a dfi module, but maybe I am about to learn a lesson about that!
VNSVLE, could you explain the technical reasons behind what you say about voltages varying/ or not varying during cranking,and the conclusions you draw from this?
regards |
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VNSVLE
Forum Moderator
1316 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 3:53:46 PM
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| Just another thought Jack Trader is it a genuine CAS?? I have heard of non genuine sensors giving off false readings and creating all sorts of havoc. If you can bare with me for a few days i will see what information i can muster up for you and let you know. I am just out of town at the moment and dont have alot of access to resourses. I should be home on sunday night though. |
What's the difference between understeer and oversteer?
Understeer is when the driver is scared.
Oversteer is when the passenger is scared. |
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nodg
National Driver
1667 Posts
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Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 02:13:11 AM
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| series 1 vn and 2 are very differant they the groves in the back of the harmonic balancer will tell you which sensor to get. |
Cheers,
Nodg. |
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Jack Trader
P Plater
11 Posts
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Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 08:59:43 AM
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Thanks vnsvle and nodq, the sensor I put in is not genuine it's an ACA brand. Have used these before with no drama. It's the adjustable series one sensor. I strongly suspect, however , that I misdiagnosed the CAS and the original one is OK.
look forward to any comments you have once you're home vnsvle.
regards |
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par10
P Plater
78 Posts
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Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 10:09:10 AM
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| I fitted an ACA brand CAS to my S1 v6 about 2 months ago, which was faulty. I then opted for a genuine item, which worked properly. By the sounds of what you've described, i'd say you've got a faulty CAS. |
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VNSVLE
Forum Moderator
1316 Posts
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Posted - 26 Jun 2007 : 8:16:46 PM
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I heard a weird one today. Check your CAS for metal filings between the gaps. I have heard that this will give you Voltages similar to the ones you diagnosed. Honestly I would be getting my hands on another ECM. This should confirm weather or not the ECM is in fact faulty. I dont know how well you know your local wreckers but I borrowed an ECM from my local wreckers to diagnose my car.
The CAS is a what they call a Hall Effect Sensor. The Hall effect type crankshaft sensor is a simple digital 'on / off' switch which produces a digital output that is recognised and processed by the ECM. The sensor is triggered by the rotating metal targets, which pass in close proximity to the sensor. This results in the characteristic squarewave output.The Buick / Commodore V6 use a twin Hall Effect 3 x 18 type pickup. One part of the sensor is used to determine top dead centre and the other part of the sensor is used to determine when the DFI module creates spark. |
What's the difference between understeer and oversteer?
Understeer is when the driver is scared.
Oversteer is when the passenger is scared. |
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nodg
National Driver
1667 Posts
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Posted - 26 Jun 2007 : 8:45:14 PM
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| your right about that one vnsvle, same as the stripping of rubber from your serpintine belt collecting on the back of the balancer, both are quite uncommon and easily noticeable. |
Cheers,
Nodg. |
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Jack Trader
P Plater
11 Posts
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Posted - 27 Jun 2007 : 5:48:56 PM
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Thanks, have checked and this is not the issue, though I must admit I hadn't thought of that. I have been tossing up taking the plunge into investing in a scope for sometime as my contact with EFI issues is increasing, this may be the catalyst for the investment. In the meantime, I will borrow and ECM and or a DFI module for purpose of diagnosis and see what happens. I hate throwing parts at things for diagnosis, it is very unprofessional and means the problem has beaten me with my current knowledge and equipment. At least it provides the motivation for upgrading both!
Shall post when I've beaten it and let you know what it was.
Thanks for the help. |
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Jack Trader
P Plater
11 Posts
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Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 2:19:38 PM
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Had access to a mates VR ute this morning, threw the DFI module off the truck engine into his ute and it works fine, his ute DFI module in the truck still doesn't spark. Unfortunately ECM's not compatible, however this eliminates the DFI module. Must now be, either the ECM (most likely) faulty new CAS (possible) or me mucking up the wiring (unlikely as this is testable and I've checked it several times).
will post when fixed.
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 2:42:20 PM
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| ecm sounds most likley!! |
3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead |
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MILD50
Fully Licenced
850 Posts
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Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 09:55:55 AM
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Before we look at ECM has the coil and dissy been ruled out?
Not a sparky, but in my experience a dodgy coil can give similar symptoms to the ignition module.. |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 10:32:23 AM
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yep fairly sure he's been down that path!
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3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead |
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MILD50
Fully Licenced
850 Posts
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Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 10:42:27 AM
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Sorry- I just like ruling out all the simple things first and it wasn't a comment on Jack Trader's knowledge at all!
I've seen a lot of people do a lot of hard work only to finally realise its a dodgy plug or lead... |
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Jack Trader
P Plater
11 Posts
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Posted - 10 Jul 2007 : 2:31:30 PM
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| Still not beaten, but it is back to the drawing board. ECM works fine in another vehicle, original CAS works fine in another vehicle, as do the DFI module and coil pack. Unless I'm mistaken, thats leaves my wiring loom. Which has consistently tested OK. All ECM voltages are fine apart from the crankshaft reference voltage. Still no spark, still code 41. It's going to be something simple and obvious when I find it isn't! |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 10 Jul 2007 : 7:09:04 PM
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| Its sounding like a bit of a petrol and match job to me lol!! crikey jack this 1 one problem that has me realy fruked ! I have searched high and low for somthing even similar and cant find anything that even resembles!!! T his is my last train of thought ( and yes it hurt lol ) try to get in contacy with a holden mechanic !! And when I say that I dont meen some little grease monkey in awork shop, get the big guy or even better email holden them self, and ask. It may take a day or two but I do know that they are always keen to help!! |
3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead |
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