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M3ZZA
P Plater
77 Posts
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 Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 5:36:14 PM
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Hey there i am toying at the moment in which path i want to take weather to go turbo or v8 so i thought about making a thread about turbo charging a buick 3800 v6 vn-vr model motor not ecotec.
What would it cost and what sort off turbo would be best to use ?
Also would it be cheaper to reverse the vn headers and make up a joiner pipe from both the headers to meet up into one and have a flange made up on the joiner for the turbo? By that i mean like most v6 turbo's the turbo is in front off the radiator.
With the fuel side off things would it be best and cheapest to run L67 injectors and Vs-vy supercharged v6 fuel pump and a rising rate fuel pressure reg ?
And with running say 7-10psi would you need to go with a intercooler or not ? I know vlt's get away with running 10psi with no cooler.
Besides that if i did go turbo i would get a proper tune done i am just trying to choose what would be cooler to have.
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Modifying a car is like a drug once you start you cannot stop. |
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VN91SX
Fully Licenced
344 Posts
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Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 8:11:58 PM
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Firstly: What is your budget?
Going down the turbo route is a very expensive business if you want to make it a reliable proposition. If you are running the TH700 auto, it will not be up to the task of forced induction. It will require more than a shift kit and service to cope with the extra torque load. So a few grand for a solid transmission that is built for forced induction is a place to start.
The motor will need stronger head gaskets and possibly a forged bottom end to stay in one piece if you want to run decent boost through her and remain reliable. The ignition system needs to be of good quality to cope with the extra heat under the bonnet that will be generated by a turbo, so here I would recommend something like MSD coils at about $365 for the three, 8-9mm spark lead $200, and iridium spark plugs at $20-25 per plug.
The diff will need to be looked at as well. A fresh LSD will be required for which you would be looking at a starting price of around $1500.
Brakes are essential in higher horsepower cars. I ran 330mm genuine VN Group A's up the front and found them to be quite an improvement over the non-existant standard VN V6 brakes. This set cost me close to $1800 including discs, pads, Dot4 fluid, and 4 sets of rotors.
And all of this is before a turbo kit has been purchased. Add another $3500-5000 on top of what you have already spent.
Add on top of that an engineer certificate which won't be cheap. If you do things on the dodgy, it won't pass at the RTA, and if you don't get an engineers certificate it will only be a matter of time before the boys in blue pull you over for an RBT and ask you to pop the hood.
That all adds up to over ten grand, and for the ten grand you just spent on the motor, you will want the exterior and interior to match the performance of the motor.
It all adds up to a very expensive project.
This is what a guy on Street Commodores wrote about his 387rwhp VP V6: "this project has set me back about 25grand and i have POS v6 commodore that struggles to run for longer then a month. for the last year it has been off the road way more then on it. everytime i fix it, i tell myself this will be the last time, or i have spent xxxx amount already whats another few g. not anymore".
This guy spent all this money and still couldn't buy the power and reliability that he could get from a B Series XR6 Turbo with far less money.
Going by what is written under your post, "Modifying a car is like a drug, once you start you can't stop", you sound like you will go all the way with the decision you make. I have just attempted to paint a picture of the turbo path
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VN91SX
Fully Licenced
344 Posts
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Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 8:26:51 PM
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I spent over ten grand on performance mods for my old VN. I was lucky because the car had a perfect exterior and interior, so all the coin I spent on the old VN was on performance and stopping power. I got stuff all for her when i got rid of her and got myself an XR6 that is backed by a ZF 6 speed. The XR has had a few things done to her since I got her, and now coughs a very impressive 330rwhp which is 246rwkw. Not bad for an atmo-6-banger! :)
I would go down the raod of an LS1 in the old VN if I had my time around again.
Have fun whatever choice you make my friend and good luck with it. Any questions, don't hesitate to ask  |
Edited by - VN91SX on 07 Jan 2011 8:29:16 PM |
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Mechknight73
National Driver
1001 Posts
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Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 11:02:29 PM
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For simplicity, you could always do an "outboard" supercharger; this is a blower mounted to the side of the engine, much like say a power steering pump on a V8.
Superchargers and turbos both have their pros and cons. For both, two of the biggest cons are that the engine will run hotter, and insurance sompanies will either run away in horror or charge through the nose. While turbos take little horsepower to run, they aren't as responsive as a supercharger. They take a while to spool up. |
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M3ZZA
P Plater
77 Posts
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Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 08:49:51 AM
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Lol my friend you just convinced me to stay away from a turbo v6. Yeah i thought about a sc14 on 5-7psi just to play around with anything to get the v6 5 speed going harder and with a full exhaustsystem and good cai,tune i thought about it but i really dont want to run a cooler.
To be honest i think i may have finally figured out what i want. |
Modifying a car is like a drug once you start you cannot stop. |
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VN91SX
Fully Licenced
344 Posts
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Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 11:29:16 AM
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G'day M3ZZA,
What decision do you think you will go with?
Running a cooler will draw all the wrong attention, the boys in blue, and thieves. At 5 PSI you could get away without have an intercooler, but what is the point of having forced induction if you are only going to run 5 PSI. You would want to start at 7 PSI, which would require a cooler as the air charge becomes hotter relative to the rise in compression of the turbine wheel. For the V6, I would assume that you wouldn't be running a huge turbo, and with the Buick 3800 having good torque down low, turbo lag will not be an issue. If 1/4 mile times are your aim, turbocharging would be the way to go on the V6.
As I said before, an LS1 conversion would be the way that I would go if I could do it all over again with my old VN. A beasty Turbo V6 will go through as much fuel as a V8. Even my worked NA V6 chewed through the fuel at a rediculous rate: 17-19L/100km. Have a look around on Street Commodores for some guys that have done an LS1 conversion to a VN. They go pretty well, but once again, you will have to lay down the foundation to support this sort of power too e.g. LSD diff, gearbox, brakes, etc.
As I said before, I would rather spend my money on something that will be atleast be worth something, because at the end of the day, no car is forever, some are, but it is rare. You want something that you can insure easily, and drive without being worried if you will get pulled over by the boys in blue for a "pop of the bonnet". E.g. A guy I know bought a BF XR6 Turbo and did a stage 3 mod to it which included higher boost, injectors, and bigger intercooler. The car made 360rwkw at 18 PSI with just those mods. He did a GTECH test of the cars 0-100 time and it pulled it in 3.8seconds. You would pull up next to this car and assume nothing. He has no problem insuring it, will have no problem selling it when he is ready with minimal loss, and has no hassles with the boys in blue. My point here is, the guy on Street Commodores with the Turbo VP V6 spent 25 grand on his car that he says is an unreliable POS money pit from which he will never see the money back. He could have bought an XR6T with that sort of money, had enough left over to make a truckload more power, no worries with insurance, no worries with roadworthy, and reliable. |
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M3ZZA
P Plater
77 Posts
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Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 8:02:31 PM
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| Yeah i see your point it would cost way to much money and it wouldn't be worth it so thats why i am thinking more off a 5 litre or ls1 conversion or buying something thats all ready turbo and leave the vn to get a v8. But yer the boys in blue are the main reason why i am turned off a turbo conversion and the money involved. |
Modifying a car is like a drug once you start you cannot stop. |
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Mechknight73
National Driver
1001 Posts
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Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 8:25:37 PM
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It's also less effort to get 300+ horsepower from an injected 5 litre. you'd be amazed how much difference a decent cam, heads, headers and exhaust system can do, and that's beofe I even get to the stronger performance parts to strngthen it up. Although plenty of manufacturers make blowers that are either overhead or side mounted, worked right, you don't even need one on a 5 litre for serious power.
The stock power output for a VN-spec 5 litre is 165kW @ 5000rpm, or about 230 horsepower. HSV versions add an extra 20kW just from a memcal, exhaust and CAI. |
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VN91SX
Fully Licenced
344 Posts
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Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 9:15:28 PM
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| The 5 litre! Good old fashioned V8 fun and sound. V8's are fun even when they are just idling with the handbrake on (The sound is enough). Turbos are fun when your doing things you shouldn't be |
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M3ZZA
P Plater
77 Posts
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Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 9:19:31 PM
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Yeah i recently had a 308 with a mild rebuild and it sounded tuff.
I am considering the faithfull 5 litre v8 and getting it stroked to 355 later on down the track or maybe a 383 kit. |
Modifying a car is like a drug once you start you cannot stop. |
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VN91SX
Fully Licenced
344 Posts
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Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 11:58:56 PM
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| My mate did a 383 stroker with yella terra dash 9 heads and wade cam. He built it himself. Was in a VP SV91. Savage motor! Very savage! Scary car |
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Mechknight73
National Driver
1001 Posts
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Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 08:50:42 AM
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| A mate of mine had a freak VH 308. Started life as an unremarkable 173 with a 5 speed. Puts a stock 308 in it, and over a quarter mile, it would smoke tyres in first, second and third. He decided that wasn't enough power for him. He redoes the heads, adds a 3/4 race cam, forged pistons. It won't idle below 1200rpm. Qurter mile time was mid-11s. It had a body kit almost identical to the ones on VH Commodores at Bathurst, but with dark green paint. It even looked aggro. When you start it up, it sounded like it was out for blood! |
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M3ZZA
P Plater
77 Posts
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Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 10:36:16 PM
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Yeh you gotta love a v8.
anyways a little on topic if someone on here was to say spend $5000 on a v6 turbo kit what hassles or trouble would they run into with them. Not talking about the police or epa either.
I have seen a few home made kits on ebay go from $1500-$2500 which some off them include a intercooler kit.
A mate off mine used to have a T03 highflow on his vn v6 5 speed it had home made steam pipe piping made up for the exhaust manifold for the turbo to sit on with a 2.5 inch dump pipe from the back off the turbo straight to his catalytic cat which he gutted and highflowed the exhaust. (sounded s**t) he used vt supercharged injectors with a rising rate fuel pressure reg. He also had a vs supercharged v6 fuel pump. He had a custom tuned chip made for him by some dude on the net to match his setup (i personally thought that was risky) he ran it on high octane fuel. On 10psi he gave it plenty off s**t every day for a few months until the t03 gave up and started blowing smoke. He then had a bigger turbo and a Haltech ecu installed,bigger injectors,fuel pump,piping modified,heaps off work. Then he boosted it a few more psi it spat out almost 50% more power and then he popped a head gasket. He now installed the kit on a vs. |
Modifying a car is like a drug once you start you cannot stop. |
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VN91SX
Fully Licenced
344 Posts
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Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 12:46:16 PM
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$5000 grand sounds like a good start. Factor in exhaust, brakes (im not talking just replacing the standard sized rotors with slotted and cross drilled either, im talking twin piston at the least up front). Tail shaft would be another factor. I know yours has an LSD, but a got freshen up of that would be a healthier prospect too. With that extra torque, and the fact that it comes on suddenly when the turbo spools up, driveline components will be an issue. A standard 5 speed will not withstand the punishment.
At 5 grand plus, you would want a good retail quality turbo included such as a Garrett or KKR.
These drivelines are 20 years old were not built with forced induction in mind, and neither were the engine internals. They ran 130kw at the motor, and with a turbo strapped to them, power at the crank will more than double (Crank snapping torque).
The $5000 kit would be a very nice starting point, but then you need money to spend on a decent, reliable, and safe foundation i.e. brakes, driveline, and engine internals. No point buying a 5 grand turbo kit if the car isn't up to matching that 5 grands worth of turbo kit |
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lemusa
Fully Licenced
193 Posts
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Posted - 16 Jan 2011 : 9:02:11 PM
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| Sounds like your off the v6 turbo idea but tbh I would just bolt on turbo stuff and do the auto box bits. The 6 can take a beating. Run at 8ish psi and youl have no worries. If u pop it its only a couple hundred bucks for another engine lol |
Just be thankful you got two legs to stand on and hands to grab sh*t with! |
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M3ZZA
P Plater
77 Posts
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Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 6:22:04 PM
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Yeah i decided to go for a 5 litre and stroke it out to 355 already found someone to do it for me when i am ready.
Yeah if i was going to do it i wouldn't really care about the motor like you said lemusa its a vn v6 cheap as chips motors and easy to replace. If i was going to do it i probably would go with a intercooler and atleast make sure its not leaning out or have a s**t tune.
Vn91sx i plan to put vy twin pistion fronts and a 1 inch vn-vs v8 booster and group a or v8 back brakes aswell with cross drilled slotters. But yer i dont plan on going turbz anymore anyways i have seen the light off a v8. |
Modifying a car is like a drug once you start you cannot stop. |
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