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MrNutter
P Plater
55 Posts
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 Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 10:41:25 AM
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Hi guys, been a while since I posted but my lack of know how with efi has come back to bite me again so here I am.
My series 1 6cyl is being a pain in the arse again. Sometimes it's fine but other times it is rough as guts. It started out that it would cough & fart occasionally when accelerating from about 80 up to 100 but other than that was fine. Then it started to stall occasionally when I'd pull up at the lights. It would sit there idling nicely for a bit but then the revs would drop, dash lights would come on & she'd die but would restart straight away with no problem. A couple of days ago it started coughing & farting when accelerating at any speed but also when just mainting speed to. On my way home from fishing the other night i put the high beams on along a deserted section of road & the dash lights dimmed & the revs dropped quite alarmingly. I flicked them off before it had a chance to stall on the move. When I pulled up in the driveway & put the high beams back on & she died altogether but again restarted with no problem. This struck me as very weird because it was only the high beams that made it do this. I tried turning on the stereo (amps & all), air con, interior light etc & it made no difference to the idle at all only the high beams had an effect. I've tested teh battery with 12.40 on the multi car running or not, tested the alternator (14.40), there's no drop at the battery when I turn on aircon, stereo etc all at once & the high beams havn't made it stall since that night but sometimes they do make the revs drop a little. All of these problems are intermittent, sometimes it runs like a dream. Anyone got any ideas? My mate suggested the coil pack might be on the way out?
Sorry for the long post & thanks in advance for any assistance.
Graeme
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VN Sedan Series I.
Stock aside from steering wheel, airhorn & stereo system but is exceptionally tidy. |
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Mechknight73
National Driver
1001 Posts
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Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 4:50:39 PM
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| Your mate might be on to something there. the headlights on high beam, assuming that you have stock bulbs, is 110W on low beam, and about 420W on high beam. Add spotlights to this and the power load is even more. Sometimes when you're drawing enough power it can screw with your ignition. If you have a known good coil pack you can borrow, swap it and see. Before you do, look for the "stupid and obvious;" loose and/or corroded connectors, cracks in the coil pack casing, or any obvious electrical gremlins. It's the intermittent part that tells me this. If it was doing it all the time, you could definitely say "X part is shot." Check everything to do with the ignition harness, right up to the ECM for wire breaks, corrosion or exposed wires. Another question I have to ask, is during its last dummy spit, were you on a smooth road or a rough corrugated one? Was it a cool evening or a hot day? Heat increases resistance, and would aggravate something like this. |
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VNGRPA
Fully Licenced
426 Posts
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Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 5:10:41 PM
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| does your mate have the same type of car as you if so swap coil packs and take your car for a drive if your car doesn't play up swap the coil pack over again and take it for a drive if it starts playing up problem sorted, if it is the coil pack the code check will let you know, when was the last time you did a service |
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MrNutter
P Plater
55 Posts
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Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 6:13:53 PM
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Headlights have stock bulbs, no spotties. Last service was a couple of months ago, oil/filter change, plugs, trans filter/fluid change & air filter. When it's played up it's always been on tarmac roads, I save the rough stuff for my Landrover. It's played up at all sorts of temps, hot days & before the sun comes up. It does seem to be worse when it's really hot though & the temp gauge goes just over the first mark. Unfortunately I don't know anyone with a VN so I've got to track through everything else first which is the part that I really struggle with. My electronics & wiring knowledge is limited to old points & carby motors so I'm completely lost when it comes to the efi & ignition system on this thing. I wouldn't know how to check an error code if you paid me & wouldn't know what they meant or what to do about them. I guess I better go read the sticky on them & see what I can learn from that. I did go over it this morning quickly but couldn't find anything obvious. All the plug leads etc are ok, there's no obvious bare, broken or loose wires or connections. It was only a quick inspection though so I certainly can't eliminate a wiring related issue. I'll go over it as best I can tonight & get back to you with what I do or don't find.
Thanks for the help.
Ok just read the sticky & it seems straight forward enough. I know where my plug is from when i had it all apart doing the sound deadening. I'll check the codes tonight or tommorw & see what it has to tell me. |
VN Sedan Series I.
Stock aside from steering wheel, airhorn & stereo system but is exceptionally tidy. |
Edited by - MrNutter on 19 Jan 2012 6:27:34 PM |
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thedunga
P Plater
90 Posts
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Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 10:54:03 PM
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I have had a similar problem in the past with my old vl and looked and looked but found nothing it wasnt untill we were at the illegal burnout comp we were at one night and i was driving up the road or should i say chugging that some dimwit abused me for flashing my high beams eratically that i thought about checking the high beam relay and wiring and found a burnt out wire that would earth out and make the car chugg and make the high beams come on. hope this helps
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Save a dim sim fry tyres instead. |
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MrNutter
P Plater
55 Posts
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Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 01:12:38 AM
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| Thanks thedunga. I've gone over all the wiring (including headlights) as best I can & can't find any loose connections or possible shorts anywhere. I replaced all the relays in the box seeing as I have heaps of spares but it didn't make any difference & I never expected it to. Was heading out fishing this arvo when it split the short hose coming from the thermostat housing so I'll have to fix that in the morning & I'll check the error codes while I'm at it. I'll report what I find tommorow arvo. |
VN Sedan Series I.
Stock aside from steering wheel, airhorn & stereo system but is exceptionally tidy. |
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Mechknight73
National Driver
1001 Posts
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Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 4:29:31 PM
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| I don't necessarily mean 4WD tracks, I mean something like a tar road with some potholes in it. I have just thought of another one. It will take a little doing to find it (recommend you do it when the engine is dead cold, lest you burn your hands) but behind your lower pulley, the harmonic balancer, is the crank angle sensor. It takes the place of a conventional distributor shaft on the V6, telling the ECM the ignition timing, and when to fire the plugs. Check to make sure it's 1. free of dirt and debris 2. undamaged and 3. the connector to it has nothing electrically wrong with it. There's a how-to of how to change it, but report back and see what you find. |
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MrNutter
P Plater
55 Posts
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Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 6:33:14 PM
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Thanks Mechknight73. I've gone over it as best I can & can't find any loose connections, bare wire or anything else that could cause the problem. I checked the error codes but other than the first few flashes nothing came up. I assume that means there are no error codes for it to read? I tried it twice & checked the sticky in betweeen tries to make sure I was doing it right (I was) but got the same result both times. I'll get in there tonight & check the crank angle sensor. Can I test the coil pack with a multi-meter, if so can someone please give me instructions how?
Thanks for all the help. |
VN Sedan Series I.
Stock aside from steering wheel, airhorn & stereo system but is exceptionally tidy. |
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Mechknight73
National Driver
1001 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 11:05:23 AM
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| With the ECM error codes, "Code 12" is supposed to mean all normal. If it's something other than that, then your VN is not deliberately making you play hide and seek. |
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MrNutter
P Plater
55 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 11:29:18 AM
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I saw that it was supposed to give me a 12 if everything was normal. I guess it's playing funny buggers with me. If it's not giving me any codes at all then could it be that unit that's playing up & causing my problems?
I replaced the hose that I split yesterday morning, the short one coming from the thermostat housing. After I was I done & I was reversing out the drive this (bracket?) fell out from under the car.  
It rattled around for a few seconds before coming out but it has left me very confused because I've never seen it before & I swear I never touched it. I think it must have been working itself loose for quite some time & it's just picked that time to fall out. Can anyone tell me what it is & where it goes? Seems to have a pretty bad viabration since this thing fell out though that could just be a coincedence & maybe just a thrown wheel weight. Lots of bloody coincedences lately. |
VN Sedan Series I.
Stock aside from steering wheel, airhorn & stereo system but is exceptionally tidy. |
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VNGRPA
Fully Licenced
426 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 4:05:13 PM
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| with she shape of it it looks like it would have something to do with your exhaust i don't recon it has come off the engine as i have pulled apart heaps of engines and cant recall seeing anything like that, best bet would be to jack your car up and see if you can move anything could even put it on jack stands and start the car up might be able to here something and track it down, as for the engine light coming on and the car playing up every now and then check your oxy sensor make shore its clean as that little thing can make the car do funny things like die at sets of lights i will take a look in the book for you mate let you know if i find anything |
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VNGRPA
Fully Licenced
426 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 4:10:54 PM
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| after looking at the book mate i think that part came from you cv joint i will get a pic up for you to see |
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VNGRPA
Fully Licenced
426 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 4:17:25 PM
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it looks like one of the joint plates mate
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Mechknight73
National Driver
1001 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 7:58:26 PM
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| see below |
Edited by - Mechknight73 on 21 Jan 2012 8:07:33 PM |
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Mechknight73
National Driver
1001 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 8:06:44 PM
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| This vibration, does it get worse the faster you go, or does it come in at x speed, then taper off after that speed? If the vibration is constant, the centre bearing joint is definitely a problem. All Commodores have a 2-stage driveshaft. The centre bearing is halfway along, and it is meant to reduce the vibration between the transmission and diff. If it is this one, mark how your driveshaft went together; a mark on one side of the uni shaft, matching it with the diff end, and a mark on each side of the centre bearing casing. The rear uni joint can potentially go together two ways, the centre bearing about 6. Driveshafts are balanced, and putting them together the wrong way will throw that balance out. If any of the universal joints or the centre bearings look suss, replace them, preferably with units that have grease nipples. |
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MrNutter
P Plater
55 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 9:04:58 PM
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Thanks guys. Yes it's definitely the joint plate in the diagram VNGRPA. I suspected that it had to be something from the drivetrain as it is a constant viabration at all speeds, not that I've gone past 60 since it fell out yesterday. I figured if it was a wheel weight it would only be a viabration at about 60. I was planning on heading off fishing tonight but it looks like my plans have just changed, I'll be fixing that now. I don't want to be driving it around with the drive shaft like that. I really should buy a manual for myself, then I could track down things like this.
I replaced the O2 sensor about 6-7 months ago & I checked it just a couple of weeks ago to make sure it was ok. It was clean & in tight. I rechecked that I tightened it properly a week after doing it. Other than checking that & doing the service I havn't done anything to it for about 6 months. The problem started about 2 months ago so I'm confident it's not something I have stuffed up. I might just buy a new coil pack for it & replace it anyway. It's under $90 on the supercheap parts finder so it's not like it's going to break the bank. Besides the missus parents are giving us thier old VZ in two months & the VN will be sold with the money going towards buying me a new boat :) so I don't care if it's a non-genuine part.
Thanks heaps for all the advice. I really appreciate it. |
VN Sedan Series I.
Stock aside from steering wheel, airhorn & stereo system but is exceptionally tidy. |
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kingbucktoo
P Plater
54 Posts
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Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 11:20:07 PM
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MrNutter, Have you solved you stalling problem when you turned your high beam on?? I stalled the motor by turning the high beam on!!, the car also had no electrical power after no radio, no dash lights.
I found the problem to be a loose battery connection.I tighten the battery terminal up, started the motor again and tried the high beam not a problem no hic-cups.
This also could be part of your problem with rough idle or changes in motor characteristics when driving.
The thing I did notice was as the high beam turned on the motor almost stalled, plus the radio clicked badly. After I found the problem tuning the high beam on was a non event to the car.
I would be checking you electrical connections at the battery, the earth connection to the chasis, also the earth connections between chasis and motor. From what I experienced you have a high resistance connection, your car is running on the generator with limited backup from the battery.
From what I have read you have looked at all I have suggested, but I would do another check pulling the battery terminals off separating the cable ends looking for corrosion or maybe a very small contact area with one of the lugs. |
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VNSVLE
Forum Moderator
1316 Posts
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Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 07:27:52 AM
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Just on those voltages. You said you are only getting 12.4 at the battery if the car is running or not??
Also 14.4 at the alternator is this correct?? |
What's the difference between understeer and oversteer?
Understeer is when the driver is scared.
Oversteer is when the passenger is scared. |
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MrNutter
P Plater
55 Posts
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Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 10:28:26 AM
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Thanks for the suggestions king. I know the battery connections & earth are good but I'll check the leads more thoroughly to make sure I havn't missed anything there. I've actually got new cables in the garage that I never got around to putting in when I upgraded the stereo so I'll just replace them both & see if that helps.
Yes VNSVLE those voltage numbers are correct. None of the accessories make any difference to voltage at the battery until the high beams come on & then it drops further to 12.1v.
I replaced the coil pack & it's running slightly better but hasn't cured the original problem. I took it on a longer run recently that included a few hills & rapidly discovered that it coughs & farts really badly going up any decent incline. There's not many decent hills in perth city so I wasn't aware of this little bit earlier. I found I had to slow down a little & then really put my foot into it to get it to kick back to get it to run properly up a hill. Does that help anyone narrow down what it might be?
Sorry I've been slow getting back to this thread, my young bloke was in hospital for a couple of weeks so I had other things on my mind. |
VN Sedan Series I.
Stock aside from steering wheel, airhorn & stereo system but is exceptionally tidy. |
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Cartrite
P Plater
73 Posts
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Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 10:44:46 AM
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| Also look at replacing the Electronic DFI pack that the coil pack sits on,we had a similar problem a few years back,would idle OK and run OK under light throttle but as soon as the engine went under load it would cough & fart,Mechanic told us it was a faulty injector so we replaced all the injectors($200)and it didn't make any difference,only found it was the DFI pack by accident when a wrecker told us to replace the whole ignition module. |
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VNSVLE
Forum Moderator
1316 Posts
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Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 2:40:09 PM
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Those voltages are not right buddy. Have a look at the charge wire going from the alternator to the battery
and make sure there are no breaks in it. If you have a multimeter check the resistance of this wire.
If you test it make sure it is disconnected at both ends also while testing move and wriggle the wire and see if anything changes.
Also check the connections at both the battery and the alternator. Make sure they are tight and clean.
One more thing disconnect the charge wire from the battery and check the voltage here with the car running.
Cheers |
What's the difference between understeer and oversteer?
Understeer is when the driver is scared.
Oversteer is when the passenger is scared. |
Edited by - VNSVLE on 17 Feb 2012 2:41:15 PM |
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MrNutter
P Plater
55 Posts
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Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 10:49:28 AM
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| Well this thing is still being a mongrel & is getting worse. I replaced the coil pack as well as ran a new wire from alternator to battery & installed new battery leads. I've checked & double checked all my earths but the problem is still there, in fact it's getting worse quite rapidly. When I start it first thing in the morning it runs rough exactly like it's only on 5cyl. It ran like that for about 1min yesterday morning & this morning it ran like that for 5mins in the driveway & for about 3km up the road before it came good. It's also going through massive amounts of fuel. If I put the foot down anymore than halfway the fuel gauge will drop by a good 2-3mm. I had the sender unit replaced a couple of weeks ago & I know the gauge is reading right. There's no fuel leaks anywhere & there's no fuel smell so I don't know where all this fuel is going or why it's running like crap. Quite frankly I'm over the whole car but I don't have any choice but to keep it driveable for now so if anyone has any further suggestions on what the problem/s might be I'd really appreciate it. |
VN Sedan Series I.
Stock aside from steering wheel, airhorn & stereo system but is exceptionally tidy. |
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thedunga
P Plater
90 Posts
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Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 11:34:56 PM
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| sounds to me like plugs or leads letting the spark leak, is there any clicking sounds in the engine bay while it is running? the mrs car was doing the same and when i started is at night and popped the bonnet there were sparks running everywhere. also it could be crank angle sensor or its wire or even the harmonic balancer, if the balancer has cracks around the edges then it may not be running true to the sensor and that will cause rough running and stalling and if the cracks are bad enough at low revs going up hill it will also not run true. just a thought. good luck. i am assuming that when the fuel sender was replaced the filter bag on the fuel pump was cleaned or replaced. |
Save a dim sim fry tyres instead. |
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Running rough
