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leebo
Fully Licenced
495 Posts
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 Posted - 16 May 2009 : 7:40:27 PM
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hey guys i thought i would post it here to save embarrassment on asking such a dumb question on some bigger sites lol.
I was after some information on polishing heads.
Now please excuse me but what does it mean to polish the heads where is that referring too.
I'm told that when doing so the airflow in much smoother/faster and gives a noticeable amount of boom.
Is this expensive and hard to do. like manifold comes off etc etc.
cheers guys
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I'll show you the Rick James cell. It's superfreaky!. |
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crazybiker
Fully Licenced
141 Posts
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Posted - 19 May 2009 : 7:37:30 PM
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It's polishing where the air flows on the intake and exhaust sides of the heads.
On a VN, the increases are pretty noticeable, considering the heads are where most of the power is lost on the Buicks.
To get them off, you need to take off the manifold and exhaust. |
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leebo
Fully Licenced
495 Posts
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Posted - 19 May 2009 : 7:59:02 PM
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so that's throttle body off,
headers or exhaust and y pipe
injectors
fuel rails
sparks plug leads unclipped
lots of mucking around i suppose
what would a small mechanic workshop charge?
or would they not do that sort of work? |
I'll show you the Rick James cell. It's superfreaky!. |
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VNSVLE
Forum Moderator
1316 Posts
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Posted - 20 May 2009 : 12:45:58 AM
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Not overly hard to remove the heads yourself. Inlet manifold off, spark plug leads off and plugs out, then remove rocker gear and push rods, then remove heads and then valves and valve springs. Couple of specialty tools needed but would be alot cheaper to do it yourself rather than pay someone. As long as you have a manual to follow and the correct tools give it a crack 
Nothing more satisfying or rewarding than doing the work yourself.
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What's the difference between understeer and oversteer?
Understeer is when the driver is scared.
Oversteer is when the passenger is scared. |
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leebo
Fully Licenced
495 Posts
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Posted - 20 May 2009 : 5:32:01 PM
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so true vnsvle spot on.
Hey since i have been looking into cams and rockers should i wait until i buy them and while my mate and i are installing them do that while were at it as apposed to putting it all back together then pulling it apart. |
I'll show you the Rick James cell. It's superfreaky!. |
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crazybiker
Fully Licenced
141 Posts
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Posted - 20 May 2009 : 5:36:13 PM
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Well doing the die grinding yourself is a fairly painful process.
Greenfoam from JC is doing his heads at the moment, and it's taking him a while.
Personally, I'd rather get them done professionally, so they can all be flow tested as well.
What Cam and Rockers you looking at? |
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leebo
Fully Licenced
495 Posts
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Posted - 20 May 2009 : 7:09:43 PM
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I got greenfoams tune in my car i hope it suites.
I'm looking at Yella terra 1.8 ratio rockers and a cam but i think stage 1 is $400 and stage 3 is about $1000 or more.
Yeah maybe professionally don't is the way to go do u think crazybiker? |
I'll show you the Rick James cell. It's superfreaky!. |
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VNSVLE
Forum Moderator
1316 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2009 : 12:19:10 AM
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Definitely professional port and polish work unless you have experience in doing this.
If you are going to be doing the cam soon I would be waiting until then as you will be pulling it apart then anyway.
Are you upgrading your valve springs?? |
What's the difference between understeer and oversteer?
Understeer is when the driver is scared.
Oversteer is when the passenger is scared. |
Edited by - VNSVLE on 21 May 2009 12:20:27 AM |
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crazybiker
Fully Licenced
141 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2009 : 11:34:05 AM
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I'd much rather get the port and polishing done professional because you can get them flow tested and can get rid of a variable incase anything plays up later.
What do you mean stage 1 or 3? Those numbers don't really mean anything to me. Do you know what the lift and duration specs of the cam are? Remember if you got the 1.8 ratio rockers you can go an excessive lift cam.
Once you get the cam and the rocekrs installed you'll also need to get the car re-tuned. Doing it through Greenfoam is a temporary option, but once you start doing major stuff, it's much more beneficial to get a live dyno tune done to suit your car specifically
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Blacky
P Plater
45 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2009 : 11:36:54 AM
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| hey leebo, yeah mate if you are doing the cam, you dont want to go that big in your roller rockers, if you work out your cam then work out what ratio with your rockers you will need, doing the rockers is just a cheaper and quicker option then the cam, so putting them together you might only need 1:65 or something like that. |
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crazybiker
Fully Licenced
141 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2009 : 3:40:10 PM
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| Not necessarily. You can still get the benefits of the rollers, and just get a cam with slightly less lift and the same amount of duration. |
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VN91SX
Fully Licenced
344 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2009 : 8:07:23 PM
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| I did a set of 1.8 ratio roller rockers before i did the custom grind cam with no dramas at all. The roller rockers were taken into consideration when the specs for the cam were being decided upon. |
Edited by - VN91SX on 21 May 2009 8:10:44 PM |
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leebo
Fully Licenced
495 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2009 : 9:03:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by VNSVLE
Definitely professional port and polish work unless you have experience in doing this.
If you are going to be doing the cam soon I would be waiting until then as you will be pulling it apart then anyway.
Are you upgrading your valve springs??
No i don't have skills in doing this so professionally done is probably the way to go. Are you saying that i will need to upgrade the valve springs if i don't already know?
I was of picking up the rocker from about $800 (or less i hope) and having them installed but also having a motor that leaks is not much fun do i might benefit from yanking it up and out of there and doing the cams and a new sump gasket or where ever the leak is coming from.
I got a quote from autobarn for cams they said $400 but that was stage 1 (do i need to tune that on the dyno?,what are expected gains?).
While i have the thing apart i can have the heads sent off for a port pollish. Also i just know i will need to be cleaning off all this carbon from the top of the pistons and valve etc from years of wear. |
I'll show you the Rick James cell. It's superfreaky!. |
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VN91SX
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344 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2009 : 10:54:57 PM
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| I wouldn't even bother with a stage one cam. Sounds to me like your motor would benefit more from and probably need an engine rebuild just to form a strong foundation. Once the rebuild is completed, then i would look at tweaking more power out of the motor with a bigger cam, headwork, and dyno tune. Chips don't compare to a dyno tune, but it is very costly to go this option, but is well worth it. There is no point in spending a couple of grand on a motor to have it lean out thanks to a cheap ebay chip. |
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VN91SX
Fully Licenced
344 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2009 : 10:57:04 PM
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| Upgrading valve springs and introducing a bigger cam to an otherwise stock motor go hand in hand. If you do the cam, the valve springs have to be done, no if's or buts. |
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Blacky
P Plater
45 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 12:08:50 AM
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| I have to agree with VN91SX mate, at least you now where you stand then, but if you dont be carefull bout taking that carbon off the pistons as this is what protects engines when they get aged, and yeah thats what i meant by cam and rockers they have to be both taken into account with one another. |
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leebo
Fully Licenced
495 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 12:31:47 PM
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Yeah i was thinking stage 1 wouldn't be worth the effort probably just a bit more sound. Perhaps putting these onto an old tired motor is not such a good idea.
I mean what is needed to rebuilt a motor. The guys i work with agreed to rebuilt my motor from scratch on the condition they get to blow it up first lol.
But does that mean u have to buy all the motors gaskets,seals,rings etc to pull off a job like that let alone adding bigger better cams and rockers?
All is annoying becos i can do this to a 5L cheaper but cant use it |
I'll show you the Rick James cell. It's superfreaky!. |
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VN91SX
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344 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 3:38:09 PM
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You could blow it up without doing anything to the motor my friend! lol. Why put money into it, and then fry it.
The reason V8's are cheaper is because of the fact that performance mods have been made for donkey's years for the 5 litre block. But with the recent changes in P Plate laws, V6's are becoming in vogue and placing more demand for V6 performance parts resulting in the price's slowly coming down. Petrol prices are another contributing factor.
I would recommend a COME Racing strocker kit for an engine rebuild. Pricy, but worth the investment in the long run, and it will kill two birds with one stone because you will have yourself a nice strong motor from which you could go forced induction down the track once you are allowed to, and you will derive a nice powerful kick in the pants as a result of the extra capacity that you aquire as a result of a strocker kit.
Quick, cheap, and easy may be how you bake a cake, but it isn't how you build a reliable, safe, and quick motor.
When you start talking cam upgrades and beyond, you want to make sure that your motor is up to scratch. |
Edited by - VN91SX on 22 May 2009 3:41:14 PM |
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crazybiker
Fully Licenced
141 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 4:25:54 PM
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Could anyone PLEASE list them specs for the Stage 1 cam?
It's not the stage number that matters, it's the Cams lift and duration values. |
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leebo
Fully Licenced
495 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 5:05:09 PM
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There's all these factors of course that come with it for example.
Rather than pulling out the motor and doing all this stuff to it and having the car off the road for the time you could go to a wreckers and get another Buick 3800 dirt cheap and build that in the garage then drop it in.
So that would probably be a more worth while thing to do would you think? no wiring loom needed probably could get a VN S1 for better torque.
what you guys think? |
I'll show you the Rick James cell. It's superfreaky!. |
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VN91SX
Fully Licenced
344 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 5:31:08 PM
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Cams are given stage numbers according to the LSA, lift, and duration figures. Stage 1 is not much bigger than the standard one.
My advice to you leebo is to look at all the options, taking into consideration your budget and what each option costs, then make a plan of attack from there. Ask yourself these questions:
1. What is legal?
2. What is my goal?
3. How much am i willing to spend?
Find out what YOU can afford, or what YOUR goals are. If you can't afford what your goals are, then save save save! You will be much happier with the end result because you will get what you want. |
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crazybiker
Fully Licenced
141 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 5:34:50 PM
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@ Leebo. The main difference between the S1 VN and the S2 VN motor are the cams anyway, so if you replace that with a custom grind one, then it wont make a difference.
@ VN91SX. Not overly. Stage 1 of one company could be much worse than that of stage 2 of another company. That's why I'm asking for the actual lift and duration specs of the cam. That way I know exactly what your talking about...and if you're really nice, you can give me the intake and exhaust opening and closing timings and I can run some simulations on the Engine analyzer and give you some rough engine power outputs :P |
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VN91SX
Fully Licenced
344 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 5:38:27 PM
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| I think this thread has gone off topic lol (headwork to cams and so forth) which tells me that you do need to do some thorough research and really think things through my friend. I don't mean to attack you or anything either Leebo |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 6:39:41 PM
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No its still very much on topic! Carry on!
AS far research goes Im guessing thats y leebo is askin a few questions! Im not attacking any1 here either! lmao |
3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead |
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crazybiker
Fully Licenced
141 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 6:41:39 PM
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Here we go. I just ran a whole heap of different head specs through the analyzer to give you rough idea.
- All figures are based on the outputs at the FLYWHEEL.
- All figures are based on a new motor
- All figures are based on a motor with Pacemaker Extractors. 2.5" Exhaust.
- All figures are in Newton Metres for Torque and Horsepower for Power
- All figures are based on 20 different analysis' between 750 and 5500
- All figures will be shown as Peak/Average
8.5:1 Compression - Original Flow
Torque: 314/284
Power: 195/127
8.5:1 Compression - 5% Increase in Flow
Torque: 318/287
Power: 203/129
8.5:1 Compression - 10% Increase in Flow
Torque: 321/290
Power: 210/131
8.5: 1 Compression - 15% Increase in Flow
Torque: 324/292
Power: 218/133
9.0:1 Compression - Original Flow
Torque: 321/290
Power: 199/129
9.0:1 Compression - 5% Increase in Flow
Torque: 324/292
Power: 208/131
9.0:1 Compression - 10% Increase in Flow
Torque: 326/295
Power: 215/133
9.0:1 Compression - 15% Increase in Flow
Torque: 329/296
Power: 222/135
9.5:1 Compression - Original Flow
Torque: 325/294
Power: 203/131
9.5:1 Compression - 5% Increase in Flow
Torque: 329/296
Power: 212/134
9.5:1 Compression - 10% Increase in Flow
Torque: 332/299
Power: 219/135
9.5:1 Compression - 15% Increase in Flow
Torque: 336/300
Power: 227/137
There you go. Enjoy.
If you want the FULL details on a specific run, just let me know, and I'll re run it and post it up.
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VN91SX
Fully Licenced
344 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 7:09:24 PM
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| For some reason i thought the topic was headwork lol. Don't know how that happened! Must have miss read something along the way lmao |
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crazybiker
Fully Licenced
141 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 7:14:31 PM
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It is headwork :P
Then he asked about Cams, and we started the suggesting on cams |
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VN91SX
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344 Posts
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crazybiker
Fully Licenced
141 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 7:18:38 PM
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Hmm. Anyway.
I can run some wade cams through the engine analyzer too if you want. I just need to know what specs you want it at.
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leebo
Fully Licenced
495 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 7:23:42 PM
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It's now top and bottom end motor rebuilding now lol so carry on.
The only reason i have included these all into one is becos they all work with each other. The head work which was port poillish is sort of related to my rockers for better lift,airflow etc which connects to the push rods which goes to the cams etc which is controlled by comp so they all tied to each other.lol
But the thing these all have in common with each other is that i should probably only bother doing them all together if possible but it's all money as VN91SX said.
Better to put them onto a rebuilt foundation.
And VN91SX however this is not legal i have been told time again by people that if the cops pop your hood and they cant see it it's not there. I'm sure he wont notice if the valve springs are titanium lol.
I have thought about it some more and i am not even on my p's yet (9th june) and i have 3 years to drive a V6 and i can have an 8 when I'm 21 so i just might do up my Buick 3800 which if done right can lead to forced induction when i am allowed.
thanks 4 those figures Crazybiker |
I'll show you the Rick James cell. It's superfreaky!. |
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crazybiker
Fully Licenced
141 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2009 : 7:26:57 PM
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| No problem. Give me a few minutes, and I'll get some information and run a few with the Wade 992a cam. |
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